Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak has been quoted by an Israeli newspaper as saying that a peace deal with the Palestinians anytime soon is "fantasy".

According to Yedioth Ahronoth, Mr Barak said Israel would not withdraw its military checkpoints on the West Bank until it has developed defences against rocket attacks from Palestinian territory.

Mr Barak said this would take from three to five years.

"Israelis have healthy intuition," Mr Barak was quoted as saying by the newspaper. "They can't be fed more fantasies about an upcoming agreement with the Palestinians."

He was prime minister in the late 1990s and came close to reaching a peace agreement that would have given up much of the West Bank to the Palestinians.

The talks - which included a Camp David summit with the late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat and US President Bill Clinton - broke down...

Yet no one insists Israel recognize Palestine's right to exist.

For an alternative view of the "meme's" in play see Stanley Heller :

Report from the Land of Apartheid

All that is happening now is theater. Olmert pretends that he really wants to "save Abu Mazen," while doing the opposite.

At Bush's request, he allowed the transfer of a thousand rifles, with a lot of fanfare, from Jordan to Abbas, so he can fight Hamas – understanding full well that to an ordinary Palestinian this will look like collaboration with the occupier against the resistance.

He enlarges the settlements, keeps the "illegal outposts," and closes his eyes while the army is helping the settlers to put up more outposts.

Let's get some facts straight concerning the state of Israel.

1) Israel: The UNDemocratic State.

    As stated before in this forum, Arabs make up 20% of the population of Israel, yet still are treated as second class citizens. Systematically denied fundamental civil rights, Palestinian Israeli's have struggled for over sixty years to overcome the gross realities of institutional and social discrimination, police brutality, and neglect within a country they have citizenship to. To further affirm the tyranny of the Israeli regime and your obvious lack of facts, let me make clear that the Israeli Consitution describes the state of Israel as a JEWISH NATION.  Although this fact may seem obvious, lets conduct a bit of simple analysis so you can better understand the  fundamental misconception you and most Americans have concerning this country. 

 Though Democractic governments come in a number of forms, it is understood in America and in most of world that for equal citizenship to be a possiblity the law must be a secular entity. Essentially, the government is an institution that does not discriminate or prefer one religious group over another. Such is not the case in the state of Israel. Israel is a country of Jews and for Jews. The word "Palestinian" or even "Arab" is not even mentioned in the document, in context to them actually exsiting in the country-completely discrediting 20% of the population itself. Although Palestinians are not formally segregated within Israel, discrimination is a simple fact of every day life. Palestinian children attend schools and live in towns that face a severe lack of funding and maintenance due to the reality of institutional prejudice that make it impossible for an Arab Israeli to get a building permit or even a job within Israel.

The Palestinian people are not immigrants in the Holy Land. They have roots, family, memories in this land that have been wrongly taken from them. As citizens of this new Zionist nation, they have been forced to live as strangers in their own land. Forced to assimilate into a country that, based on the documentation on their passport, is their own. Israel cannot deny the Palestinians their own identity as a people, they cannot deny their existence, their history and their place on that land. Intimidation tactics will not quell this struggle within Israel, they will not silence the minority.

2) Israel: The Terrorist State

The definition of "terrorism" has taken on many different definitions, and throughout history has assumed a number of forms: most commonly- revolutionary, subrevolutionary, and established terrorism.

It is established terrorism, otherwise knows as state terrorism, that is of particular importance when addressing the role of the Israeli occupation in both the West Bank and Gaza Strip, the thousands of Palestinian prisoners within Israel, and the actions of the IDF and Jewish settlers against unarmed civilians within the illegal apartheid wall. 

Far to reminicent of the infamous Berlin wall in Cold War Germany and strikingly similar to the racist apartheid that the United States so vehemently condmened in South Africa, the current apartheid wall and illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip is the most obvious example of Israel's role as a terrorist state. Extending far beyond its intended 1967 borders, Israel currently holds an illegal occupation of Palestinian land , lawfully ordained to the Palestinian people by the UN and international community through the 1967 Oslo Peace Accords.

The fight for this land began the 1st Intifada, or uprising. A struggle of the Palestinian people in the 1980's to gain back the land that was stolen from them by the Israeli government. In the midst of this warfare, traditional IDF tactcs of ethnic cleasing were (and still are) systematically used as a means by which to eliminate the Palestinian population. Massacres such as Sabra and Shatila in 1982 were a commonplace in everyday Palestinian life.  Within the occupied terrorities, sewage systems, clean running water, housing, paved roads, electricity, jobs, simply did not exist. IDF forces destroy olive groves daily, the sole source of Palestinian income. Entire housing communities, of the few that do exist, are bulldozed daily-waterways intended to feed into Palestinian communities are redirected towards Jewish settlements that are built on documented Palestinian land. Attacks by Jewish settlers are common, heinous curfews, military inspection, beatings, killings, checkpoints, are simply part of the humiliating life that the Paletinians face on their own land. Palestinians living in the occupied territories are given different colored license plates so Israeli forces know to individually stop them and allow for Jews to pass through freely. Getting to hospitals, schools, jobs has now become nearly impossible. The Israeli army has settled itself and currently controls land that does not even belong to them. they instill checkpoints on Palestinian roads and shoot Palestinian children in Palestinian towns with American made guns and weapontry. They have divided a people with the intention of exterminating them or when they can take no more, perhaps flee. This military or state terrorism if you will, is not a fact simply of the past-but is a harsh reality of the present as well. And in order to address Palestinian terrorism a deeper look at Israeli terrorism must be made and better understood.

The struggle against Israeli terror and occupation picked up again in 2000, the year of the 2nd Intifada, marked by a steep rise in the suicide bombings throughout Israel. These suicide bombings are by no means justified- for no death of an unarmed civilian can be justified by any means. However, what we must understand, as objective onlookers in the situation, is the reason why a young Palestinian boy or girl can willingly use their body as a weapon.

Although it is difficult to relate to a life under occupation, it can be for certain the misery, pain, and humiliation Palestinian children are born into would have a profound psychological effect  on any person, no matter how moral of a person you believe youself to be. Many who choose the path of destruction in suicide bombings are those who have lost all hope for their own future, have seen indescribable suffering, and are fully aware that the international community has no intention of helping them-they are virtually left nothing with which they can call their own-not even the right to exist. It is through this vulnerability that an individual views their own body as their only weapon against those who have taken thier land, their identity, and their freedom. And it is with that body that an individual looks to inflict pain on the enemy. In the psyche of any individual in a war zone, the world exists in black and white. There is you and there is the enemy. There is no distinction between soldier and civilian, man, woman, or child. There are simply those who live on the other side of the wall, those who live on the land of their ancestors, those who told the world that "The Palestinian people do not exist" (Golda Meir).

Front page headlines of suicide bombings run across every magazine and newspaper in America, explaining the fears of every Israeli citizen who cannot even go out to night clubs or bars or restaurants whenever they want because of fears of an attack. These fears are justified and legitimate, but this story is not complete. For who knew that Palestinians cannot step outside their homes without a fear of being shot by snipers, that women cannot reach hospitals in time to give birth, that the elderly cannot receive medical treatment, that people cannot get to their jobs, that children cannot go to school? Who knew that Israel currently hold 10,000 Palestinian prisoners in jails and dentention centers, a large percentage of which are women and children? Who knew of the Palestinian story?

Israel is not the only victim in this conflict. In fact, this conflict is a simple relationship between the occupied and the occupier. The Palestinian struggle for a recognized identity is not a unique one when looking at history. This fight for an identity as well as human and civil rights is no different than Colonists who fought in the Revolutionary War, Indians who fough against British colonialism, or South Africans who fought against aparthied. The Palestinian story is the story of any people who have struggled for the right to exist, the right to an identity, and the right to freedom.

I see that I have written a lot already. I was planning on writing a third point to touch on the most current situation concerning the apartheid wall. But I'm tired, and do not wish to explain the situation any further unless someone truly wants me to.

I close this with the hope that each of you keep in mind these facts. That the United States supports an undemocratic, apartheid, terrorist nation with 40 billion dollars of American tax money each year. Tax money that could be going towards veteran care, our education system, our welfare programs, Hurricane Katrine victims. We have put more money into providing for Israeli citizens with weapontry that supports an illegal occupation than our own citizens here in this country. And that is the most shameful truth that faces are country thus far, and a truth that Washington has chosen to cover up and ignore.

so as we fight this global War on Terror, perhaps we should look a bit closer at who we are fighting. For the Israeli regime is on no higher moral ground than Saddam Hossein, Osama Bin laden, or any other war lord or terrorist in the world. Hamas, a "terrorist" organization, was elected as the ruling government because they are the only organization willing to give funds and protection back to the Palestinian people. They are the only organization willing to continue the fight for freedom. These  so called "radicals" are only a reflection of the dire situation the Palestinians face. They are their only hope... It is so called "secular' organizations such as Fatah and the former PLO that put money into the hands of corrupt politicians such as Yasser Arafat and ignored the strife of their own people. These were all corrupt organizations who, keep in mind, were supported and encouraged by the United States. Coincidence? I think not.

The Question of Palestine is one that can be easily answered. Not by elaborate "Roadmaps to Peace" or ceasefires, but the simple recognition of a people and their Right to Return to their own land. It is a fact that Israel must face, or it will indeed perish under the evident economic strains that plague the country, and the deep social divides in Jewish society concerning the conflict.

I hope this has clarified the conflict. Many people do not seem to really understand the facts of the situation at all. egoldst2-this is for you.

Yes, it was about Mike and the AIPAC and Mike Gravel supports Israel within its 1967 borders. The AIPAC does not. The most recent question is about the real proposal behind the headlines of Bush's "West Bank First" proposal. We have to wait and see.

I am afraid that it will seek to institutionalize the Israeli "settlements", the ones Ariel Sharon and Ehud Barack built with US money during the years after George Bush stated that they ought not to do so, as well as ALL the others.

This is the AIPAC position. This is not Mike Gravel's position.

Time will tell.

I "perhaps" might have taken the link to Black Agenda Report from the source you site, but of course I did not. I recommend Black Agenda Report to everyone here.

I also recommend that everyone here follow up the links to Desmond Tutu's and Nelson Mandela's reflections on Apartheid in South Africa and Israel through the links I furnished below.

Educating oneself on the US/Israeli role in the Middle East requires effort. The MSM in the United States certainly and in Europe to a great extent parrots the Israeli line. The Palestinians have been oppressed for far too long. It is time for the a free and sovereign Palestine in ALL of the illegally occupied West Bank and Gaza strip and for a connection free from Israeli interference between them.

Let us see if that is what the Bush plan calls for. That is what Mike Gravel calls for.

Imagine, if you will, a modern apartheid state with first, second and eleventh class citizens, all required to carry identification specifying their ethnic origin. First class citizens are obliged to serve in the armed forces, kept on ready reserve status until in their forties, and accorded an impressive array of housing, medical, social security, educational and related benefits denied all others.

Second class citizens are exempted from military service and from a number of the benefits accorded citizens of the first class. They are issued identity documents and license plates that allow them to be profiled by police at a distance. Second class citizens may not own land in much of the country and marriages between them and first class citizens are not recognized by the state. Second class citizens are sometimes arrested without trial and police torture, while frowned upon and occasionally apologized for, commonly occurs.

Citizens of the eleventh class, really not citizens at all, have no rights citizens of the first class or their government are bound to respect. Their residence is forbidden in nearly nine-tenths of the country, all of which they used to own. The areas left to them are cut up into smaller and smaller portions weekly, by high walls, free fire zones and hundreds of checkpoints manned by the army of the first class citizens, so that none can travel a dozen miles in any direction to work, school, shopping, a job, a farm, a business or a hospital without several long waits, humiliating searches and often arbitrary denials of the right to pass or to return. Posh residential settlements for the first class citizens with protecting gun towers and military bases are built with government funds and foreign aid on what used to be the villages and farms and pastures of the eleventh class citizens. The settlers are allotted generous additional housing and other subsidies, allowed to carry weapons and use deadly force with impunity against the former inhabitants, and are connected with the rest of first class territory by a network of of first-class citizen only roads.

Citizens of the eleventh class are routinely arrested, tortured, and held indefinitely without trial. Political activism among them is equated to “terrorism” and the state discourages such activity by means including but not limited to the kidnapping of suspects and relatives of suspects, demolition of their family homes, and extralegal assassination, sometimes at the hands of a death squad, or at others times by lobbing missiles or five hundred pound bombs into sleeping apartment blocks or noonday traffic. Passports are not issued to these citizens, and those who take advantage of scarce opportunities to study or work abroad are denied re-entry.

Daniel Levy, a former Israeli peace negotiator currently based at the Century Foundation and the New America Foundation here, was even more dismissive of the speech, which, he said, "may well drive Palestinian politics towards a period of even greater chaos that could create a space for al-Qaeda look-alikes to gain a foothold [in the Palestinian territories]."

Bush's approach, he said, appeared to be based on "deepening" the conflict between Fatah and Hamas rather than trying to bring them together.

"The two-state solution that the president claims to support will need to deliver and have legitimacy on both sides in order to have a chance of being sustainable. That cannot be based on an irreconcilable Palestinian political division," Levy noted, pointing to recent press leaks by U.S. intelligence officials who oppose the West Bank First strategy on the grounds that Hamas is too strong and has too much popular support to be effectively isolated or marginalized.

I would like to think positively about this. we'll see. not so sure i trust this particular news source...

I hope you're right freerovingbovine, but I am very skeptical.

The civil war in Palestine, pitting the most abused and exploited people on earth against each other, was the work of Elliot Abrams and the Neocons in Washington. He, and they, are doing the same in Lebanon and Iraq, funding al Qaeda again, in both countries.

Egypt and Jordan are both US client states and their authoritarian Sunni regimes have apparently been scared by the prospect of any kind of democracy breaking out in the Middle East. Hamas is the democratically elected government in Palestine of course, no matter what the Neocons and their dupes say.

Time will tell, I hope that you are right, frb.

It's about time that Israel evacuated their illegal settlements on the West Bank and returned the land they've occupied there for forty years to the Palestinians.

Somehow, I don't think that's what the Neocons have in mind.

I intend to watch after work today. 

I care for jews, but I also care for muslims. I can't imagine living in either Israel or Palestine (what there is of it) with the constant tension and revenge. I am very angry with the aipac/zionist lobby..the money, the war, the deception, 9/11... 

They're there, Kate. There have been dramatic protests against the AIPAC mob in Boston. There are 1680 refuseniks in Israel itself. But Cecilie Surasky notes the muzzle applied to anyone, but to Jews especially, who criticize the AIPAC, the Israeli far-right wing, and the Neocons in Washington DC and in Israel.

The standard anti-Semite label applied to those of us who point out that it is in the interests of neither the Israeli or American peoples for the illegal occupation of Palestine to continue is really a rallying cry to insiders, to Jews themselves, with the added side effect of silencing some criticism of Zionist expropriation and atrocities.

The Neocon tack of "uniting" Americans against "Islamo fascists" or "Islamic fundamentalists', its cry of "they hate us for our freedoms", is a page taken right out of the Zionist playbook.

Unite the "faithful" by telling them that all the world hates them, not for what they DO, but for what they ARE. This is the basis of racism, of discrimination of any kind that allows one group to de-humanize and thus to slaughter with moral impunity its selected enemy.

The struggle against racism and its Neocon proponents on both the American and Israeli fronts is real. These folks are like vampires, they never die a natural death. Look at the convicted felon Elliot Abrams, who ran the death squads in Central America twenty years ago, now running the death squads in the Middle East again today.

It is up to all of us, Jews and gentiles alike, to drive the stake through the heart of this racism once and for all. If it is not completely expunged, and very carefully monitored, it will rise up again and again.

To this our answer must be as one : "Never again!".

Basic  Politics  101 :   Land belongs to those who  can hold it.

You might be pleased to study the history of  William the Conqueror ,

and those  who  inherited  what he got.

Of  course  ,  Mike  has the faculty of  moral judgment  .  With that  ,

Mike's position would be  :  it is only right to go to war to defend

what you   **have***  -- not  to get what you

don't have.

Me  :  I'm like  Mike  ;  I don't  have  much of this world's goods  !

Looks like Mike's campaign is attracting  mostly the impoverished  !

Well ,   I don't see that  I have to be impoverished of   ***mind***  ! !

Ro  W  t h  E  G  ra  V  e  L  !

 tannhauser PACOM  ,  tanaiste

I believe that Mike agrees with you and wishes the state of Israel a long, peaceful and prosperous life within its 1967 borders, as stipulated by UN resolution.

As well Mike wishes the state of Palestine a long, peaceful and prosperous life in the West Bank and Gaza strip, after Israel's withdrawal from those territories, mistakenly occupied these past 40 years.

I think that Mike agrees that a valuable incentive to Israel to end its occupation would be for the American government to stop financing it.