Link: http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/08/05/former-presidential-candidate-ur...
Now, I don't know too much about the story... but Gravel: protest doesn't work and shouldn't be used? c'mon man, a last resort, but sometime's thats the only thing that 'll work. i know you want the ni4d to prevail instead but to say that protest doesn't work is a little absurd...
Want to see what you guys think about this... will do more reading on whats going on lately. (Been out of the loop for a bit) and will engage in discussion.
Comments
too far....
Submitted on August 8th, 2008 by biphenyleneGordon Kromberg is a criminally bigoted and downright evil federal prosecutor. Nevertheless, I think that Mike crossed a line that he most likely now regrets when he said "find out where his children go to school". This reminds me of the horrific tactics of the extreme right in terrorizing physicians that still have the courage to perform abortions. Unfortunately, these reprehensible tactics are extremely effective. However, I don't think it helps our cause at all to suggest we lower ourselves to their level and use their immoral tactics. Picketing his home is already pushing the envelope, so to speak. I think that those eight words may damage Mike's credibility more than anything he has ever said in his life. What a shame, eight careless words may tarnish the hundreds of thousands of words spoken by Mike that represent wisdom and brilliant insight, words that should be heard by millions without such qualifiers as "crazy" or "treasonous".
Now that Mike is not running, I will probably hold my nose and vote for Obama. The republican party is the antithesis of everything I believe in. The libertarian right is not enormously better and I just can't stomach voting for Barr. Cynthia McKinney is well, Cynthia McKinney. Ralph Nader is old hat. I have left the democratic party, but as a believer in the "libertarian left", I am happy with none of the above. Time is running out and electing McCain would be a certain disaster for mankind. I have some hope if Obama wins, although it's not the hope he's mass marketing...
Sigh, back to the lesser of two evils...
All I have to go on is the FOX selected quote
Submitted on August 9th, 2008 by jflAll I have to go on is the FOX selected quote. Actually, all I have to go on is the crusading, "terror-slut" Steve Emerson's Investigative Project on Terrorism's selected quote.
So I'm free to make up my own context. Just as the "terror slut" did and fed to the greedy FOX.
I can imagine a dialog like the following:
<quote cut from whole cloth>
"crowdmember in Washington, D.C" : What Gordon Kromberg has done is outrageous and criminal! We have to do somehting, we have to use his own tactics against him to bring him down!
Mike Gravel (smiling, he's heard it so many times before) : OK. “Find out where he lives, find out where his kids go to school, find out where his office is, picket him all the time. Call him a racist in signs if you see him. Call him an injustice. Call him whatever you want to call him, but in his face all the time.” In my judgement it's not going to work. "How do you deal with this kind of an injustice? I wouldn’t protest. I don’t believe in protesting. I think it demonstrates the failure of representative government. My answer to that problem is, I want to empower you as a lawmaker. … Don’t rely on your elected officials,"
Because you can't rely on them. You can't move them with protests. You must take back the sovereign power you have surrendered to them and straighten things out yourself.
When it comes to "national security" matters, to labeling a whole people as terrorists because you want their land, their water, I say let the people decide. And I have faith that We the People are not interested in demonizing a whole people, that We the People are not cowering in fear of anyone, that We the People will choose to live and let live and renounce the only terrorism over which we have any control and that is the terrorism carried out by our own government.
All around the world, wherever the people have the courage to stand up to US corporate imperialism, "our" government commits terrorism, which incites terrorism against us, which is then used to justify the original terrorism on our government's part, which brought about the reaction to it.
</quote cut from whole cloth>
I realize that I've made up my own context, just as FOX and the "terror-slut" have theirs. But I'll bet dollars to donuts mine is closer to the truth.
As for voting for evil, as you intend to do, Manuel Garcia Jr. has a nice little essay On Voting this morning :
"...it is illogical for me to vote for either John McCain or Barack Obama. With either one I get more war, and I will never again vote for war. Ralph Nader is my logical choice for president because he advocates what I want (Cindy Sheehan would be my choice for congress if I lived in Nancy Pelosi's district).
Objectively, I realize that Ralph Nader will not win the election. So, is my vote wasted? Since it is my vote and I prefer to apply it to the support of the people who carry on the platform of ideas I would wish this nation to adopt, no.
I understand how presumptuous Democrats may wish to commandeer my vote, with the excuse that as a leftist I should be a captive of their party, and vote for O'Clinton to spite McBush. They will wail that my vote for Nader is a wasted vote, perhaps even contributing to a Republican victory.
But, I repeat, I will never again vote for war, and I will never again endorse the empire. I don't care if I'm the only person in the country who votes against the empire. That will never be a wasted vote. "I'd rather vote for what I want and not get it, than vote for what I don't want and get lots of it."
If I can do this, then so can you, and so could a majority of US voters, once they wake up."
You don't like Ralph? Write in Mike Gravel. A vote for JMcC/BO is a War Crime.
And friends don't let friends commit War Crimes.
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Times have changed. We are going to empower the American people. Let’s work together. I am tough. I’m not afraid. None of this politics as usual. Mike Gravel
Two notable independent
Submitted on August 10th, 2008 by arpidoodleTwo notable independent candidates today are Ralph Nader (a long-time and effective advocate for economic justice), running for US president, and Cindy Sheehan (today's best-known US anti-war activist), running for California's 8th congressional district seat in the US House of Representatives.
We already know the most important outcome of the 2008 election, the headline could read: "Americans Overwhelmingly Endorse Empire!" Why? Because too many voters have internalized the indoctrination that instructs them to measure the efficacy of their elected representatives by the quantity of pork barrel slopped their way. It's all about the money. Everybody wants their local federal grant, or highway repair, or school building fund in exchange for their vote; every politician wants those votes, as well as his or her campaign funds; and every capitalist wants political and regulatory favors in exchange for those campaign funds. The Duoploy continues not only because it can manipulate the apparatus of government to prevent parliamentary democracy, but because much of the public does not want to lose its share of the pork barrel occasionally cracked open for it, by shifting its allegiance to minor parties and independent candidates.
Perhaps we could simplify - Americans do not want to bite the hand that feeds them. A little media brainwashing - including the baiting of senior statesmen will remove the 'impurities' that accompany the MICC's handouts.
The Neocons can dish it out, but they can't take it.
Submitted on August 7th, 2008 by jflThe Ordeal of Dr. Sami Al-Arian
The Ongoing Persecution of Sami al-Arian
Al-Arian Prosecutor Gordon Kromberg Profiled
A Prosecutor Is Called 'Relentless'
Police Beat In which our man in Washington observes the nation's guardians
' Prosecutors are busy. Way too many bad guys are running around for them to help catch with stings and convict in court. Some outlaws are even pretty smart. He admitted that he currently had 10 money laundering cases in which he couldn't figure out how the people were washing the dough. But still, he knew these people were guilty and was certain they needed to be punished. Should we let these people get away, he asked, before answering in an illuminating way: Not if we can punish them through other means.
' There you have it: Kromberg came clean, to employ a law enforcement cliche. He bluntly declared that people like him ought to be able to punish individuals they believe are guilty, even if they can't prove that guilt in a court of law. In essence, this affable despot sees nothing wrong with prosecutors serving as judges and juries. Different levels of punitive action deserve different levels of protection, he said. If you're not infringing on liberty, he said, punishment should require a lower standard.'
As my Dad used to say to me when I was a boy, and picking on my younger brothers : "You can dish it out but you can't take it." And the Neocons are of that ilk... all the way. Kromberg's MO is no different than Cheney and the gang's frame-up of Iraq, and now BO's frame-up of Afghanistan and Iran.
I think that BamaGravelian is probably right about what was going down when FOX lifted their soundbyte. I think FOX is less interested in getting at Mike than they are in keeping "terrorism" as hot as they can and defending the Neocons who are doing the yeomanly work against "terrorists" - aka Muslims. This guy Kromberg is a criminal, certainly not the only one working in our Department of Justice. The USA is upside down.
I hope that the JMcC/BO duopols can be kept from power this fall. Just keep the faith and write in Mike, or vote for Ralph or Cynthia. Hell, vote for Barr if you're one of those susceptible to the Libertarian line.
Let's see what happens when someone tries to claim to be POTUS with way less than 50% of the votes cast in the election.
Don't ever give up.
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Times have changed. We are going to empower the American people. Let’s work together. I am tough. I’m not afraid. None of this politics as usual. - Mike Gravel
is this what Mike is going to face
Submitted on August 8th, 2008 by arpidoodleThe Ongoing Persecution of Sami al-Arian
By ALEXANDER COCKBURN
Efforts to free Sami al-Arian have now reached the U.S. Supreme Court. On July 30 an appeal was lodged with the Court by his attorneys, led by Professor Jonathan Turley.
There are few prospects in the justice system so grimly awful as when the feds decide never to let go. Rebuffed in their persecutions of some target by juries, or by contrary judges, they shift ground, betray solemn agreements, dream up new stratagems to exhaust their victims, drive them into bankruptcy, despair and even suicide. They have all the money and all the time in the world.
Is this what Mike is going to face when the FBI charges him with stalking?
You know its not likely unless Gravels' status takes a big swing in the upward direction - but what is so true about it all is downright depressing - and Bush's legacy lives on and on and on because the Feds can smell a free luch a mile away. I am so beyond pissed it doesn't matter - it just keeps going on and on -and nothing except twisted notions by the minions and their slave masters mean anything. WTF
Do I have to close my mind to everything like most do to keep my sanity.
the strain is showing
Submitted on August 7th, 2008 by arpidoodleAnyone surprised Fox news is ready to turn Mike into some kind of anti-patriotic homophobe?
We all speak out of context - sometimes we are taken out of context - but when the two are combined and the gossip mills start to turn - look out - the real injustice is on its way.
Tom you haven't been around - you missed some sage advice - 'STAY AWAY FROM THE TV SET' !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The feedback to their coverage was predictable - a virtual smear campaign which is what they were hoping for - to silence for once and for all someone who is willing to the learn the truth, speak the truth, and live with the truth.
If the media had their way there would never be an end to the injustices which they proliferate under the guise of marketable news. Many are willing to pay homage to mob mentality. Too many.
Where did he say "protest
Submitted on August 7th, 2008 by BamaGravelianWhere did he say "protest doesn't work and shouldn't be used"? It sounds like you're putting words in his mouth. My understanding is that he said he didn't believe in protesting. There's a huge difference. The denial of belief is not the same as the denial of effectiveness.
I feel like using a chess analogy. The experienced grandmaster Viktor Korchnoi does not believe in the King's Indian Defense as a reliable weapon, yet he is clearly aware of its counterattacking potential and is one of the world's foremost experts on the opening although he only plays against it as white. Although he doesn't believe in its ultimate soundness, he could easily give advice to a younger player if he were to insist on playing the defense as black.
I applaud Gravel for bring
Submitted on August 14th, 2008 by kyeotI applaud Gravel for bring national exposure to a topic that the American people would most likely never know about. People claim that Gravel went too far, ask yourself how far would you go if one of your family members was being detained illegally, is goin over board really defined by picketing where someoneones children attend school? Were talking about a illegal imprisonment, this should not be taken lightly. Personally I would'nt ever protest or picket for the following reasons. For one your assuming the role of a begger and not a participant in the system that you live in. Second your relying on the ones who make the laws to somehow "see the light" or the "errors of thier ways" feel some sort of compassion and change there mind of how things are done. If they have the mentality to illegaly imprison someone I highly doubt they have any morals what so ever.
I been considering voting for McCain, not because I like him or believe in the things that he does, but I have grown bitter from people turning a blind eye to the problems that are going on around us conserning America. Everyone wants the superficial bandaid perhaps what America really needs is a president who will make us hit rock bottom before we can no longer hide or head in the sand and pretend our problems do not exist because they do not effect us.
If you would hasten the journey to the bottom
Submitted on August 16th, 2008 by jflIf you would hasten the journey to the bottom a vote for JMcC or BO will serve the same purpose. The differences between them are purely cosmetic. They're both "right on the money" when it comes to catering to the "needs" of corporate, MICC America.
It's your vote. Vote as you want to. I'm voting for Ralph Nader. Or writing Mike in. I will never again vote for war.
A vote for JMcC or BO is a War Crime in my estimation. I urge you not to do it.
--
Times have changed. We are going to empower the American people. Let’s work together. I am tough. I’m not afraid. None of this politics as usual. Mike Gravel
Ask yourself a few
Submitted on August 17th, 2008 by kyeotAsk yourself a few questions?
1. How many times have Ralph Nader run for president and actually won?
2. How many Americans are stricken by fear to the point that they select Representatives that do not even reflect there moral or economic beliefs?
3. How many Americans still deem 3rd party candidates as spoilers?
4. How many Democrats actually think they are making a positive difference by electing Obama?
5. What are the chances of Obama becoming elected only to face the same failure in government four years later?
6. What difference can Ralph Nader make when he chooses to use the same broken system of government?
7. How are Ron Paul and Ralph Nader any different when they try to sell an idea instead of a solution like Mike Gravel?
I thank you for your responce, ill take it into consideration, however these are the same questions that present themselves to me that wont allow me to vote for Ralph Nader, Ill either write in Gravel or vote McCain.
Write in Mike Gravel
Submitted on August 18th, 2008 by jfl1. How many times have Ralph Nader run for president and actually won?
"Winning" the election is not the criterion, once you step off the treadmill. Writing in Mike for POTUS is unlikely to produce the result voted for. Voting for McCain might make him the "winner", but then all of us lose. Perhaps you're looking for suicide by ballot, cf. suicide by cop?
If the combined turnout of the non-duopoly candidates begins to approach the number garnered by the "winner" then even those amongst us who have temporarily given themselves up to despair will notice that fact, and then next time...
Please remember that the NI4d is dead in the water at this particular point in time. We need a general "awakening" to our own ability to change the terms of our political lives. Everyone admits that we "could" change things in an instant... But we "won't". That's the consensus. Reflected by the MSM.
Having an election for POTUS in which the "winner" garners 32% of the votes cast would galvanize the electorate. Even a result approaching that would do so. I'm working for that end. And if my man "wins"... you will be able to tell the difference between a McCain?Obama adminstration and a Nader/Gonzalez one.
2. How many Americans are stricken by fear to the point that they select Representatives that do not even reflect there moral or economic beliefs?
That's exactly what you're proposing with your McCain vote, no? I suppose you might say it's despair and not fear that you're struck by. That's an unobservable difference.
3. How many Americans still deem 3rd party candidates as spoilers?
Most, i suppose. See 1 above.
4. How many Democrats actually think they are making a positive difference by electing Obama?
How many Democrats think at all? I don't mean that facetiously. I don't think many "Democrats" or "Republicans" think about politics at all. They react, and vote. Leave the "thinking" to the MSM/DNC/RNC.
5. What are the chances of Obama becoming elected only to face the same failure in government four years later?
Whatever his chances of getting elected the chances of "the same failure in government four years later" should he be elected are 100% in my opinion. Same if McCain is elected. Not the same at all for Nader/Gonzalez. Again, my opinion.
6. What difference can Ralph Nader make when he chooses to use the same broken system of government?
Lots. If he brings the troops and corporations(!) home from Iraq in six months as he has pledged to do that alone will justify his presidency. Neither McC nor BO will do that in four or eight years.
7. How are Ron Paul and Ralph Nader any different when they try to sell an idea instead of a solution like Mike Gravel?
Well, if you shine your flashlight on the two and compare their shadows... yes, they're both shadows. The living breathing people are nothing alike.
It sounds as though you are taking the position of "the complete revolution" or suicide by ballot. You can do as you wish, but don't commit suicide... Write in Mike Gravel. It's the principled alternative.
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Times have changed. We are going to empower the American people. Let’s work together. I am tough. I’m not afraid. None of this politics as usual. Mike Gravel
1. What I was looking for
Submitted on August 19th, 2008 by kyeot1. What I was looking for was a scenerio that would induce the people to vote for the Ni4D. As proof look how much the 8 years of shrub has induced the need to bring about the ni4d, it even brought out a senator to run for president who hasn't participated government for decades. I disagree with you that the ni4d is dead in the water as alot more people know about it now then before.
2. You mistake the idea of voting for McCain for despair, rather i think it would be a solution to induce the need for the people to vote for the ni4d.
4. I think thats where we differ on opinion too. I think the people "think" but i think its there fears that cause them to make stupid decisons. Many of the people I know that are voting democrat truely believe they are making a difference in voting for Obama and its fear that McCain will win is the reason why they wont vote for Nader.
5. I disagree... if McCain would be elected holding true to shrubs agenda with an appoval rating of 20 something percent chances are that the people would want more participation in there government and would most likely want to participate for the Ni4d. However if Obama would win the people might feel some sence of satifaction that they made a difference, shut down shrub and his agenda, not knowing they they voted for the same damn thing is sheeps clothing. A vote for Obama would prove more destructive imo.
6. I wouldnt trust Nader or any other politician who thinks they can change the system using the same form of broken government.
Well like i was tellling ARP dont think i could vote for McCain in good concience but pretty sure a McCain win would bring about the people to have a "Need" to participate in government.
'1. What I was looking for
Submitted on August 19th, 2008 by jfl'1. What I was looking for was a scenerio that would induce the people to vote for the Ni4D... '
I agree, and a big showing by "3rd party", non-duopols could be what snaps people out of their stupor and gets them thinking like the people-in-charge that we really are.
' As proof look how much the 8 years of shrub has induced the need to bring about the ni4d, it even brought out a senator to run for president who hasn't participated government for decades. I disagree with you that the ni4d is dead in the water as alot more people know about it now then before.'
I think the Mike would have run to publicize the NI4d anyway, but certainly 8 years of the present putsch made Mike's ideas across the board, especially his anti-war stance, resonate with many more than otherwise. I still think that Mike could have made a much better run with anti-war first and the NI4d second... but that's a moot point now, as they say. In any case those of us who Mike reached instantaneously picked right up on the NI4d as well. And no one else did... except Ralph Nader.
' 2. You mistake the idea of voting for McCain for despair, rather i think it would be a solution to induce the need for the people to vote for the ni4d.'
I think voting for someone on the basis of secondary effects of their candidacy is a mistake. This is the Democratic pitch : don't vote for who you want because if you do the rest of us sheep are going to elect the "bad" guy. I have no control over what "the rest of us sheep" do. I only have control, such as it is, over what I do. I wish "the sheep" would realize that and take back control of their own lives instead of pointing the finger at the sheep dogs.
'4. I think thats where we differ on opinion too. I think the people "think" but i think its there fears that cause them to make stupid decisons. Many of the people I know that are voting democrat truely believe they are making a difference in voting for Obama and its fear that McCain will win is the reason why they wont vote for Nader.'
Fear and thinking are immiscible. If they're acting out of the fear in their bellies, or wherever it is, they're not thinking. I'm with Mike. I have faith in we the people, once we get over what he so insightfully terms our adolescent approach to politics and actually take charge.
'5. I disagree... if McCain would be elected holding true to shrubs agenda with an appoval rating of 20 something percent chances are that the people would want more participation in there government and would most likely want to participate for the Ni4d. However if Obama would win the people might feel some sence of satifaction that they made a difference, shut down shrub and his agenda, not knowing they they voted for the same damn thing is sheeps clothing. A vote for Obama would prove more destructive imo.'
I don't know which one would be more destructive and I don't want to find out. But I discount all this parsing of the how people might feel. This stuff is unknowable and certainly not the kind of stuff to predicate real decisions on, imo.
'6. I wouldnt trust Nader or any other politician who thinks they can change the system using the same form of broken government.'
Nader is for the NI4d, remember? Would you prefer to have McCain as POTUS than Ralph Nader? It sounds as though you would. Nader doesn't walk on water according to my lights. He's a technocrat. I find Mike much more appealing. But Nader's still in the race.
'Well like i was tellling ARP dont think i could vote for McCain in good concience but pretty sure a McCain win would bring about the people to have a "Need" to participate in government.'
I thought you were being provocative with the vote for McCain stuff. I'm glad to here you weren't serious. I can't buy the "McCain win would bring about the people to have a "Need" to participate in government' though. If that were the case George Bush would have been turned out of office in 2004. People are like the frogs in the pot warming up slowly. They'd sit tight and die with McCain.
Just as long as you don't vote for him :) It doesn't make any difference what you or I think "might" be the case with people's perceptions of reality. Reality will play out however it does. Just don't vote against reason on the hunch that you're setting up a sequence of unreasonable events that all work for the best. They'll probably work toward a more unreasonable world. At least that's the way it seems to me.
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Times have changed. We are going to empower the American people. Let’s work together. I am tough. I’m not afraid. None of this politics as usual. Mike Gravel
Long term solutions require
Submitted on August 18th, 2008 by arpidoodleLong term solutions require permanent effort.
All that is missing here is Noah's voice advocating a new ark be built. Going to the left or right (or backwards) seems strange when the battle lies straight ahead. Overall the effort needed to fight it is non-existant. Maybe that is why we will hear Noah's voice again - when the few who are both willing AND smart enough to do something realize they are a minority.
There is no rock bottom place (McCain) from which 'the people' would have no choice but to rebound - as the fat lady said - "I tried to drown my sorrows not realizing sorrow knows how to swim"
Just because someone wants to dig their own grave doesn't mean you have to help. Because Many may seem to want to dig their own graves may be misleading as the following U.N. survey indicates;-
A worldwide survey was conducted by the UN. The only question asked was:"Would you please give your honest opinion about solutions to the food shortage in the rest of the world?" The survey was a huge failure...
In Africa they didn't know what "food" meant.
In Eastern Europe they didn't know what "honest" meant.
In Western Europe they didn't know what "shortage" meant.
In China they didn't know what "opinion" meant.
In the Middle East they didn't know what "solution" meant.
In South America they didn't know what "please" meant.
And in the USA they didn't know what "the rest of the world" meant
Your right I could never
Submitted on August 19th, 2008 by kyeotYour right I could never vote for McCain in good conscience, couldnt live with myself, but I am almost certain 4 more years of a crap president like this the people couldn't hide behind there fear anymore and would almost certainly vote for the Ni4D.