I have been insulted, dehumanized, and then banned from posting

June 20th, 2008 by jfl

I have been insulted, dehumanized, and then banned from posting at

http://groups.google.com/group/Ni4dus

adding injury to insult, so I respond here.

I don't agree with the ranks of closed minds that have closed ranks against me. Who won't even refer to me by name. Dehumanization. A la The Regime.

Ah... so adept you are at identifying the insiders, bobgnote among them, and pushing out the outsiders.

And at claiming the NI4d as your proprietary package.

So I'm insane.

I'm not insane. I'm applying my god given reason to the problems of our democracy.

You people want to belong to an exclusive club, apparently. I hope you enjoy each other's company.

I don't find you all that attractive. Perhaps 60,000,000 Americans will prove me wrong.

I wish you luck with your proprietary solution to our nation's problems.

I'm amused that you don't find it ironic in the slightest that you elitists, you subtractors, you censors and banners, are sponsoring something called the National Initiative for Democracy ;)

I think what you have is wholly inadequate. But time will tell.

Good Luck.

Comments

I'm over it

Submitted on June 29th, 2008 by jfl

Hey, I'm over it. You guys can get over it too.

What made me so furious was not my treatment at the hands of the folks over at the google group, but the treatment of anyone who stood up for the spirit of the NI4d itself over there.

I tried to get a discussion of the text of the NI4d going and I was met, basically, with arguments from Authority. "You cannot touch the text!" The Ni4d is all about touching the text.

Those guys look at the NI4d as a done deal. They don't even see how ridiiculous that is. I can understand the original authors' reluctance to revisit arguments they feel they've dealt with ten or fiteen years ago, but they're going to have to get over that too if they're really commited to the idea of the NI4d.

The NI4d is about people writing their own laws, not about committees writing laws and then telling the people they have an obligation to back them as "the voice of the people". But that's just what's happening over there.

As far as being silenced.. hey, I've been thrown out of better places than that. It's just that that is such a weak method of dealing with controversy. It is so antithetical to the very idea oif the NI4d that I am disheartened and taken aback. Right from the start it degenerates to this? The same thing happened here when the Libertarians first rushed in. I attribute this to Libertarian influence. You don't have to scratch more than the surface of a Libertarian to discover that, and I paraphrase, many of them feel that democracy is mob rule. The fact that that fact was kept well hidden during the Ron Paul campaign gives a clue to the level of "truthiness", as what's his name puts it, of that movement itself.

The challenge of the NI4d is to invent a means of allowing any and every citizen who wants to take part in the drafting of legislation to do so. I can understand that Mike's twelve years in the US Senate and years before that in state legislatures have defined his perspective. He has been an integral part of "real", representative legislatures and that informed his design and the creation of the Electoral Trust.

But I think the extra level of control that seemed so natural to Mike is wholly unnecessary and again, antithetic, to the real promise of Mike's own remarkable vision of what we might have, what might set us free. I don't hold myself forward as the one and only one who has seen the light. I think that a majority of people will agree that there is an opportunity here to really do something revolutionary, to really advance the state of the art of democracy.

Time will tell. It's not up to me, or to 100 people at the google group. It literally takes 60,000,00+ Americans to make this happen. I cannot imagine 60,000,000+ people getting excited enough about the present proposal to effect it.

But, hey, maybe I'm wrong. I'm no one special. I'm just another bozo on the bus. But I'm very happy to be just another bozo, intent on exercising my own powers, such as they are, according to my own light. Until the light itself goes out and with it my sputtering existence.

I think that's the whole point of the NI4d, to let us all do that. I think its present, proposed realization falls short, so I'm going to try and fix it. On my own initiative. As just another one of the people.

Times have changed. We are going to empower the American people. Let’s work together. I am tough. I’m not afraid. None of this politics as usual. Mike Gravel

Yikes!

Submitted on June 21st, 2008 by BamaGravelian

John,

I'll probably regret writing this, but...

Maybe it might help to step away for a moment. I get pretty frustrated at times and lose sight of the big picture. I have to admit a few of the posters there seem a bit nutty, so I don't spend a lot of time there. When you write posts like this where half of the people don't know what you're talking about, people may start to think you sound nutty also. Sorry if this sounds rude, but this year a lot of your posts directed to supporters are very negative and I don't even know how to respond because a lot of the time I get the impression that they partly directed at me. There is but so much time in a day.

I appreciated all your help in getting me started and it's a bit frustrating to me when I see stuff like this. A lot of times I even agree with you, but I don't respond because I don't think dwelling on the negative (at least publicly) is the best use of my time. I have found that when bad people get to me, the resulting frustration can have a bad sense of direction in its expression.

James

when words of love won't get ya where you want to go

Submitted on June 28th, 2008 by arpidoodle

not that anyone is keeping track

the reason jfl is disgruntled is because people he and we have all worked so hard to bring up to date are unresponsive

jfl is not quite as pissed off as we all should be

personally i think jfl could be a spokesman for any government at any level, but when it comes to speaking truth to the b.s. the parties that we 'loosely' call the MIC and AIPAC and etc and etc - well -when in Rome - do as the Romans do!

at his level of involvement he has shown more discipline and restraint than anyone i've seen - he has more than a 'right' to be frustrated -

have you read and followed up on ALL of his posts?

when you question him you weaken the whole truth movement

is that what you want?

I often read his posts, as I

Submitted on June 28th, 2008 by BamaGravelian

I often read his posts, as I do yours. I keep up with this forum regularly, but I can't respond to everything. I don't think that would even be a good idea. I really have to think about a lot of this until I feel informed enough to make an intelligent response. I feel like an idiot right now typing this because I am pretty sure that I have already alienated both of you even though I respect your contributions. So why not continue?

"when you question him you weaken the whole truth movement

is that what you want?"

I don't think you mean it this way, but you sound like some folks I've encountered in the "R3VOLUTION" and I don't mean that in a positive way.

Call me a failure all you want. I sure feel like this a lot, but just dwelling on it never got me anywhere.

Right now, I feel like that no matter what I write, it will be a complete loss. It will be misunderstood. I will be undermining the truth movement, yada, yada. Sorry, I am not one of the elites. I never was and will never be.

Did I actually say that jfl did not have a right to be frustrated?! I sorry if it came across that way. I'll really have to check what I wrote earlier. I am really quite terrible with writing/speaking. I have struggled with it all my life.

In my experience, people in life who made feel like a failure were usually not very helpful when I was struggling to overcome adversity. I had to distance myself from them if I wanted to accomplish anything to get myself out of a rut.

I have said enough and probably much more than I ever should have said. I knew I would regret writing this.

I took a much needed

Submitted on July 7th, 2008 by arpidoodle

I took a much needed break.

The complexity one idea can generate must be becoming obvious. The NI4D is just one idea that can, will, and does generate enormous compexity, and such is life. I have to think to my mentor's words when describing mass motivation - the good doctor would simply quote "In Flanders Fields" - meaning - 'war is the great uniting force' - or more simply put - it takes a big dose of bad medicine to get people to act together.

I was just looking at old Kent State pics of the student shootings/Vietnam War and the end of the draft, comparing that massive protest and loss of innocence and life with what might be needed to get something like the NI4D snowballing and what I come up with is this little oversimplification ... God gives us an umbrella in the one hand, and a safe haven in the other. It is up to us to put them together. We have to be involved, from day one til the day we leave, because the day we think its all going to be done for us is the day we fall between the cracks.

If people aren't smart enough to pee when their pants are on fire - that's their problem.

Which people would that be? Which people aren't smart enough to pee when their pants are on fire?

The status quo that's waiting for a war to unite them?

The politicians that are willing to lead them into another one? If the masses are going to be dealt with 'harshly' - as President Bush deals with them, and if people want more of it, then that's what they are going to get. Obama is no different at all when it comes to common sense, - he doesn't have any. All he has at this point is less harshness to offer, but how fast the corruption sets in. I digress.

The only way anyone is going to really speak to the masses is the way we're doing it now - via the internet - regardless of how infantile that may seem - it is the best way. If for no other reason than because we can do it at our leisure - when we are prepared to listen, AND be objective in the process, plus the fact we can do it at all makes good reason - but - most of the world does not yet have the needed access to it.

But always - speak your mind - always - there's no such thing as a stupid question ...

Sometimes they have to be taken with a grain of salt.

"truth movements"

Submitted on June 28th, 2008 by BamaGravelian

I am very conflicted. This is very frustrating to me. Anger can lead to action if used positively. When used negatively, it distorts the individual and leads to a dependence upon its perpetuation, no matter how justified the anger may have been. I feel like I see this happening to so-called "fringe" groups that were perhaps started with a noble cause. This is one of the main reasons I can no longer directly associate myself with the Libertarian Party. I consider them to be effectively irrelevant because of the people that are involved. There are some good people, but the nuts overtake the party and keep their message from ever reaching the mainstream. I won't let myself become part of a fringe group within a fringe group, because I can talk about Gravel's message in a common sense way to regular people. If I constantly surrounded myself with people in the LP, I fear I would become distorted and bitter.

You accuse me of undermining the "truth movement" when I am simply expressing how I honestly feel about the whole situation. I sincerely believe that you lose reasonable people when inordinate attention is paid to the whims of nutjobs within an organization. jfl spoke as though he condemned us all for a conspiracy against him within an NI4D google group, a group of which I had not become aware until after the convention. (And I can see that he has a lot to be angry about there. The threads are often hijacked by strange people--I hope they don't come here.) A lot of people will become silent when stuff like this happens in a forum, because it is turning them off. When you tell people that expressing this viewpoint is incompatible with a "truth movement," people will leave and take their truth with them.

Sorry, I don't know anything

Submitted on June 21st, 2008 by BamaGravelian

Sorry, I don't know anything about banning or censorship here or on that group. It's just hard for me to believe that there are not better ways of handling the situation. When I see stuff like this, I feel like I am under attack even though it really doesn't involve me at all.

they're going to

Submitted on June 22nd, 2008 by arpidoodle

they're trying to get rid all of us - I'm not going to mince words - look what they did to high profile candidates

I'm pretty sure you weren't

Submitted on June 20th, 2008 by rossl

I'm pretty sure you weren't banned from posting. DebbieKat was talking about bobgnote, not you. He posted a bunch of irrelevant stuff, then completely insulted her.

It's pretty clear that she

Submitted on June 21st, 2008 by jfl

It's pretty clear that she is referring to the "insanity" of "tweaking the text" of the NI4d.

<quote>

Let's stop with insane posts (we all know who I'm talking about). Let's stop tweaking the text of the NI4D.

</unquote>

The group is trying to go from 6,000 signatures to 60,000,000 by subtraction.

I was unblocked there after my posting here.

That is a profuondly anti-democratic group.

They are intent on kidnapping the NI4d, and have succeeded within the confines of their group.

Times have changed. We are going to empower the American people. Let’s work together. I am tough. I’m not afraid. None of this politics as usual. Mike Gravel

She was talking about

Submitted on June 21st, 2008 by rossl

She was talking about bobgnote with the "insane posts." And yes, she was talking about you when she was talking about tweaking the text. But those are completely separate things.

And in her eyes and in others' eyes, focusing our energy solely on rewriting the Ni4D is counterproductive.

the NI4D floated like a lead balloon

Submitted on June 28th, 2008 by arpidoodle

because everyone that wanted to put their 2 cents worth in sunk it.

now is not the time for all good men to act together - now is the time for all good men to stand back and let the fools - whomever they may be - dig their own graves

I have been insulted, dehumanized, and then banned from posting

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