Question about Gravel's LP run

April 21st, 2008 by Gooze_One

Posting this here because all I got was an irrelevant lame response in the other section.

I am wondering why Gravel seems to not take issue that the LP candidates are not chosen democratically but brought issue with the whole oligarchical system the democrats set up with their superdelegate system?

Just something I have been wondering.

Comments

I didn't think redgar's

Submitted on April 21st, 2008 by BamaGravelian

I didn't think redgar's answer was irrelevant at all. Do you have any experience with the delegate selection process in the Libertarian Party? Considering the size of the party and the potential for abuse, I don't think it's completely fair to compare the process to the use of superdelegates in the Democratic Party. I think it's understandable to have some safeguards here, especially when there have been so many abuses by the two-party system against third parties. Personally, I had no problem becoming a delegate at my state convention when I expressed a desire to attend the national convention, but it might be different in states with larger attendance.

Honestly, when I see people make snap judgments about the Libertarians, I start to think about all the snap judgments people made about Gravel and his supporters in the mainstream. It is reasonable to ask questions such as this, but there's no need to so rude about it. As so many statements by the ignorant about Gravel make me cringe, a few of the comments here about the Libertarian Party make me cringe also.

"People will have to suffer a level of frustration and anger sufficient to reason their way out of this conundrum and reach for an "out of the box" solution to their own empowerment." (page 6 of Citizen Power)

The only time I was even

Submitted on April 21st, 2008 by Gooze_One

The only time I was even partially rude was me commenting his responses were lame, which they kind of were, especially given his disdain for democratic ideals (why is he in the Gravel camp then, given the beef of his platform is direct democracy).

That being said, I do not like the LP, but it has to do with it's platform, rather than the way the party is set up, I'll read more about how it chooses it's candidates later today.

Thanks for the input btw.

Ah ok, I was mainly focused

Submitted on April 21st, 2008 by BamaGravelian

Ah ok, I was mainly focused on the redgar's first response since I felt that was the one most relevant to the discussion. I might have been a little irritated after reading one of jfl's posts and taken things the wrong way. (jfl, I swear I haven't deleted your posts!) I think there are certain dangers associated with a pure direct democracy that should be recognized, but that is not what Gravel is advocating with the National Initiative. I think we have more common ground with the Libertarians than you think; however, we need to make our case at some points of contention, and I think we have a good case to make once we get past superficial impressions based on misleading labels. For instance, I agree with many of the concerns from the Ron Paul side; however, I often disagree with their approaches to solving the problems. Talking to people at the state convention, I realized that we have very similar goals and I really think that the LP is a much better fit for Gravel than the Democratic Party. Also keep in mind that there are many differing viewpoints within the party, so there might be more acceptable room for disagreement than you think.

National initiative may not

Submitted on April 22nd, 2008 by Gooze_One

National initiative may not be pure direct democracy, but it is still a form of direct democracy, and anyone with a disdain for democratic ideals shouldn't support it.

Democracy

Submitted on April 21st, 2008 by redgar

I'm not following the above? Were there deleted posts? I don't think any rudeness occurred either. I'm a potential delegate and am consdering all the candidates.

Walter Williams has couple of good articles on democracy Democracy or Liberty? and How To Create Conflict?

Many of the LP members are torn between selecting someone with name recognition with broad appeal to the voters (like Gravel) and a candidate that will not sacrifice any principles of liberty in the name of getting elected. If Gravel's supporters expect to get the LP nomination they should at least understand the problems our country's founders had with Democracy.

“It had been observed that a pure democracy if it were practicable would be the most perfect government. Experience had proved that no position is more false than this. The ancient democracies in which the people themselves deliberated never possessed one good feature of government. Their very character was tyranny; their figure deformity.” - Alexander Hamilton June 21, 1788

Thanks for the links and

Submitted on April 21st, 2008 by Gooze_One

Thanks for the links and input Redgar.

That being said, I can tell we fall under different political philosophies, and am seeing the problems that Gravel will have under an LP ticket. Honestly, with all respect to Gravel, I don't think he should try to get the LP ticket, he is just too different from the LP to honestly run for their platform, as I am.

But again, thanks for the interesting links and input, as I alwasy try to expand my knowledge.