You need to convince libertarians

April 4th, 2008 by minorgrey

If you want any shot at all you need to go and discuss these issues with other libertarians.  I suggest going to some libertarian forums, signing up, and talking to them before they start really settling on a candidate.  Donations are a guide to how well a candidate is doing and it sways the convention delegates, you need to get some libertarians to back Gravel.  Here are some places to go:

Facebook:

Libertarian Party Group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2204805796

Free State Project Group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2204983906

Reason magazine Group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2247204695

Advocates of Liberty Group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=9139071058

Ron Paul for President 2008 Group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2229718737

 

 

Forums: 

Ron Paul Forums: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/index.php

Mises: http://mises.com/forums/

Political Crossfire: http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/

Strike The Root: http://www.strike-the-root.com/cgi-local/yabb/YaBB.pl

Free Talk Live: http://bbs.freetalklive.com/ 

You are all welcome to come to the forum I frequent as well; it's full of libertarians, anarchists, and general rightists.  Many can be abrasive at times but if you can duke it out there you can survive anywhere. http://forum.afcore.com/index.php

 

‹ Re-broadcast of the LP Presidential debate including Mike Grave... Libertarian debate available (audio only, quality not great) ›

Comments

I registered on Ron Paul

Submitted on April 6th, 2008 by rossl

I registered on Ron Paul Forums, but it won't let me use my username.  I can log in, but then it doesn't let me do anything beyond that.  I can't get onto the chat, I can't post messages, I can't reply to messages, etc.

 

Is there supposed to be some email that I need to respond to?  Because I never received one.  Or do I just need to wait a certain amount of time before I can do anything?

 

I emailed someone from the forums, so I'll see.

 

Another suggestion for a place to convince people about Gravel - check out your local/state Libertarian party website.  On the PA forum, I'm already in a discussion about Gravel.

I'm registered on that forum

Submitted on April 6th, 2008 by Brian798

I'm registered on that forum too. They have to accept you becoming a member first, so they review your profile and info, then they will accept it in the next few days. You will recieve and email saying you are now a registered member. 

Gravel '08

 

Alright, thanks for the

Submitted on April 7th, 2008 by rossl

Alright, thanks for the heads up.

Thanks very much, I'll check

Submitted on April 5th, 2008 by rossl

Thanks very much, I'll check them out.

There's a thread at

Submitted on April 5th, 2008 by minorgrey

There's a thread at ronpaulforums about Gravel joining the LP you guys might be interested in.  It gives you an idea of where some libertarians stand on the issues.

 

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=130292

I forced myself to read most

Submitted on April 5th, 2008 by crs6785

I forced myself to read most of the thread. Some of those people simply pick out one of his stances or views, missrepresent it or don't give it context, and then conclude, "Ron Paul wouldn't support this, so I guess I shouldn't". I don't really expect a rational converstation to go too far on a website devoted to the grassroots effort of a single presidential cadidate. The same thing would probably hold true for any such forum (Including instances on this forum), though it all depends on the members.

 

I'm not about to try to court the libertarian voters out there though. I hate thinking in terms of party politics and I don't even agree with a lot of their platform anyhow. I really see Mike as far too independent thinking to be in the Libertarian party, especially given that his is at odds with them on quite a few issues. It really makes me wonder why he joined them instead of just simply leaving the Democratic part and leaving it at that. I suppose financial support and a better shot at getting on the ballot may be the reason, I dunno at this point.

"I forced myself to read

Submitted on April 5th, 2008 by minorgrey

"I forced myself to read most of the thread. Some of those people simply pick out one of his stances or views, missrepresent it or don't give it context, and then conclude, "Ron Paul wouldn't support this, so I guess I shouldn't"."

 

I've run into several Gravel supporters that have acted the exact same way.  These are some members of the libertarian party.  To gain votes for Gravel you have to engage them... you can't just throw your hands in the air and walk away.

 

"I don't really expect a rational converstation to go too far on a website devoted to the grassroots effort of a single presidential cadidate."

 

Well the site isn't devoted to a single presidential candidate.  There are areas for local candidates, congressional candidates, and delegates.  The only requirement is that the candidate uphold liberty.  It's named ronpaulforums because that's what it started out as, it will be changing to "liberty tree" once the race is over.  I think you'll find that most of the people there like Gravel they just take issue with NI4D, universal healthcare, carbon tax, and central government.  You're going to have to debate some people in order for them to get on your side of it.

 

"The same thing would probably hold true for any such forum (Including instances on this forum), though it all depends on the members."

 

It's a forum with 18,422, with the most users online being 4,009.  You're going to find some support.

 

 

"I've run into several

Submitted on April 5th, 2008 by crs6785

"I've run into several Gravel supporters that have acted the exact same way."

 

So have I, which is why I added ...

 

"The same thing would probably hold true for any such forum (Including instances on this forum), though it all depends on the members."

 

"These are some members of the libertarian party.  To gain votes for Gravel you have to engage them... you can't just throw your hands in the air and walk away."

 

My second paragraph explains why I will not try to court those voters to get them to vote Gravel. If I wanted to engage people to change their minds, I think the worst place to do it is in a forum dedicated to their political ideology. It reminds me of Christians going to the IIDB forums to try to convert them to Christianity...good luck...lol.

 

"Well the site isn't devoted to a single presidential candidate.  There are areas for local candidates, congressional candidates, and delegates.  The only requirement is that the candidate uphold liberty.  It's named ronpaulforums because that's what it started out as, it will be changing to "liberty tree" once the race is over.  I think you'll find that most of the people there like Gravel they just take issue with NI4D, universal healthcare, carbon tax, and central government.  You're going to have to debate some people in order for them to get on your side of it."

 

I guess the same thing I said above applies to this as well. There's going to be a bias due to the nature of the forums intent, just like there will be a bias here. From what I read of the thread on Gravel, there were very few people evening speaking favorably of him. I really don't want to engage people strictly to get them "on my side". I don't even like to think of it like an "us" and "them" mentality. I do see it as a battle of ideas, in which one really is right and the other is wrong. However, I do not see those forums as a good area to debate people on these ideas due to my example of the Christians and the IIDB forums above. Maybe if I could find a more neutral political forum dedicated to the debate of the issues I would engage people there (Neutral in this sense being not created to support a certain political ideology or set of candidates).

 

"It's a forum with 18,422, with the most users online being 4,009.  You're going to find some support."

 

I wouldn't doubt that I would. Just like you may find some Ron Paul support here from a few members. But would this forum be a good area for a Ron Paul supporter to try to convert people to their cause? Probably not, and I think the same holds true for those forums. I hate to sound hopeless, but most people really are close minded and have trouble thinking outside of a certain political ideology/group that they identify with.

 

 

"My second paragraph

Submitted on April 5th, 2008 by minorgrey

"My second paragraph explains why I will not try to court those voters to get them to vote Gravel. If I wanted to engage people to change their minds, I think the worst place to do it is in a forum dedicated to their political ideology. It reminds me of Christians going to the IIDB forums to try to convert them to Christianity...good luck...lol."

 

Getting Ron Paul supporters on your side is the only way you have a shot.  I'm dead serious.  The LP asked him to be their candidate... candidates running said they would drop out of the race and support Paul if he ran... every candidate running has worked with the Paul grassroots campaign.  If you can't convince his supporters then you can't support the LP because it's made up of Paul people.  Now you can either throw your hands in the air or you can engage them and try to bring them to your position.

 

"Maybe if I could find a more neutral political forum dedicated to the debate of the issues I would engage people there (Neutral in this sense being not created to support a certain political ideology or set of candidates)."

 

There are pockets of libertarians everywhere (as I've pointed in other links) but you are going to find the ones that will support and actively work for him, at the rpforums.  If you think you can just recruit people into the Gravel campaign outside of the libertarian pool then you will fail.  There are far to many libertarians that will block it.  Do what you feel you'd be best at but this is something that needs to be done... period.

 

"I wouldn't doubt that I would. Just like you may find some Ron Paul support here from a few members. But would this forum be a good area for a Ron Paul supporter to try to convert people to their cause? Probably not, and I think the same holds true for those forums. I hate to sound hopeless, but most people really are close minded and have trouble thinking outside of a certain political ideology/group that they identify with."

 

I have gone the Huckabee forums, McCain forums, Thompson forums, various neocon heavy political forums, and several different liberal forums to recruit Paul supporters.  We had blogs up at Red State, and Free Republic... the media got swarms of e-mails from us every day.  They didn't call us tenacious for nothing.  I went into the snake pit (and trust me, some of them are such as the huckabee ranger, and Hannity forums) and defended my believes.  Did I convert everyone?  No, but damn did I bring down a few.  Every one of his supporters were convinced by someone.  If you believe in something then fight for it.

 

 

“If you can't

Submitted on April 9th, 2008 by crs6785

“If you can't convince his supporters then you can't support the LP because it's made up of Paul people. Now you can either throw your hands in the air or you can engage them and try to bring them to your position.”

 

I never said I would support the Libertarian Party. In fact, I honestly don't agree with a lot of their platform. I support Mike Gravel because of his stance on the issues that I think are important. I think it's unfortunate that he even joined the Libertarian party. I will spend my political/civic engagement, what little of it I have due to full time work and school, in a way that I think is beneficial. Simply because I don't want to engage Paul fans doesn't mean I'm giving up on Gravel's campaign to get his ideas out there; internet forums are a very small section of the political landscape in something such as a campaign. Internet forums are an extremely small demographic of people.

 

“If you think you can just recruit people into the Gravel campaign outside of the libertarian pool then you will fail. There are far to many libertarians that will block it. Do what you feel you'd be best at but this is something that needs to be done... period.”

 

Actually, I've talked quite a few people into supporting Gravel, though somewhat indirectly. They seemed to be most interested in his drug policy, the NI4D, and his stance on Iraq and war in general. These people do not identify as libertarian, although they may hold to a few libertarian principles. I don't think that having e-fights/debates in internet forums is going to have any significant impact on Gravel's campaign. I think the internet can be a great tool for cohesion of a group and general organization, but don't expect discussions on forums to play any sort of a role in Gravel's success or failure in the campaign. So I don't think it's something as pressing to do as you make it seem.

 

“I went into the snake pit (and trust me, some of them are such as the huckabee ranger, and Hannity forums) and defended my believes.  Did I convert everyone?  No, but damn did I bring down a few.  Every one of his supporters were convinced by someone.  If you believe in something then fight for it.”

 

Posting on forums is a somewhat passive and disengaged form of political engagement, so I'm not too sure I would call that going into the snake pit. I would call it more of a “How much bullshit and ignorance am I willing to put up with at these forums?” kind of a situation.

 

I have a lot of things that I fight for. They generally aren't the support of a particular candidate, party, or ideology though. I will argue and debate ideas and issues, but I do not go about it in the same way that you probably will. To each his own I suppose.

 

"I never said I would

Submitted on April 9th, 2008 by minorgrey

"I never said I would support the Libertarian Party. In fact, I honestly don't agree with a lot of their platform. I support Mike Gravel because of his stance on the issues that I think are important. I think it's unfortunate that he even joined the Libertarian party. I will spend my political/civic engagement, what little of it I have due to full time work and school, in a way that I think is beneficial. Simply because I don't want to engage Paul fans doesn't mean I'm giving up on Gravel's campaign to get his ideas out there; internet forums are a very small section of the political landscape in something such as a campaign. Internet forums are an extremely small demographic of people."

 

Most libertarians spend a lot of time online, which is why Paul has raised so much of it online.  If you want to talk libertarians into supporting Gravel the best place to find them is online.  They don't make up a small demographic online, very few of them aren't connected to the web in some way.  It is how we organize and we've been doing it a while now.

 

"Actually, I've talked quite a few people into supporting Gravel, though somewhat indirectly. They seemed to be most interested in his drug policy, the NI4D, and his stance on Iraq and war in general. These people do not identify as libertarian, although they may hold to a few libertarian principles. I don't think that having e-fights/debates in internet forums is going to have any significant impact on Gravel's campaign. I think the internet can be a great tool for cohesion of a group and general organization, but don't expect discussions on forums to play any sort of a role in Gravel's success or failure in the campaign. So I don't think it's something as pressing to do as you make it seem."

 

E-fights and debates is exactly how Ron Paul raised so much money and support.  We debated anyone we could and changed people over.  To say it doesn't do much is being short sighted and totally underestimating the power of the internet as a communication tool.  Professors will be teaching about this campaign in college for years to come and it's all due to the internet.  But hey, don't take my word for it... He only went from a no name candidate to raising the most money in history and beating Rudy in almost every primary.

 

"Posting on forums is a somewhat passive and disengaged form of political engagement, so I'm not too sure I would call that going into the snake pit. I would call it more of a “How much bullshit and ignorance am I willing to put up with at these forums?” kind of a situation."

 

Ok, have fun with the Gravel campaign since it's gone so well thus far.  I'm only a libertarian activist that's telling you how to win other libertarians over.

 

"I have a lot of things that I fight for. They generally aren't the support of a particular candidate, party, or ideology though. I will argue and debate ideas and issues, but I do not go about it in the same way that you probably will. To each his own I suppose."

 

Yeah maybe you wouldn't.  Besides debating online I go to protests, I've worked with food not bombs, I've handed out literature, I've volunteered for 3 different presidential campaigns, and I've helped organize several community projects.  How do you think Gravel can gain support within the libertarian community?

 

 

Sorry about that other

Submitted on April 9th, 2008 by rossl

Sorry about that other poster's demeaning tone, minorgrey.  It was really uncalled for.  You're only trying to help.

I tried to italicize your

Submitted on April 5th, 2008 by crs6785

I tried to italicize your quotes, but that seems to be broken for some reason. Bleh. This forum really needs a better way to quote people.

I like Barack Obama, except for...

Submitted on April 5th, 2008 by jfl

' I think you'll find that most of the people there like Gravel they just take issue with NI4D, universal healthcare, carbon tax, and central government. '

I like Barack Obama, except for his stance in favor of American imperialism, his fabulous indebtedness to the Wall Street financiers who have destroyed our economy, and his unqualified support for israel.

We're all nice guys. You just support what you believe in. I think the NI4d is a brilliant idea, one that will come to pass, although I don't know when. Mike is not an idealogue. Libertarinism is an ideology. Idealogies are by and large invented to justify concrete states of affairs, after the fact. Like "social Darwinism". Libertarianism was invented to justify "I'm all right Jack" capitalism. Most libertarians weren't let in on the joke, however.There's zero chance that the Libertarian Convention will nominate Mike Gravel as their candidate for President.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Obama or Clinton or McCain will bring the troops home and end the war in Iraq.

--

Times have changed. We are going to empower the American people. Let’s work together. I am tough. I’m not afraid. None of this politics as usual. Mike Gravel

 

"Libertarianism was invented

Submitted on April 5th, 2008 by minorgrey

"Libertarianism was invented to justify "I'm all right Jack" capitalism. Most libertarians weren't let in on the joke, however."

 

Spoken as someone that has no idea what libertarianism is about.  *sigh*

 

"There's zero chance that the Libertarian Convention will nominate Mike Gravel as their candidate for President."

 

That's probably true since there doesn't seem like a large active group of Gravel supporters.  You need to work to get stuff done guys.  That’s a fact… more so than the LP not nominating Gravel.

 

 

Nolan Chart

Submitted on April 5th, 2008 by Jaywin

 

If the Nolan Chart is any measure of libertarian thinking, then that's a pretty good sized quadrant for a whole range of beliefs that could be labeled "libertarian". I tend to fall on that boundary between "libertarian" and "liberal"...that's basically why I consider myself a "liberal-tarian". I suspect Senator Gravel falls around that area, too.

Where would you say that most libertarians would be placed in the libertarian quadrant?

BTW, you ever see that extension of the Nolan chart with an added third dimension of "political liberties"?  I wonder where most libertarians would fall on the 3-D Nolan chart?

--------------------------------

Jason

National Staff

Volunteer Moderator

Jason@Gravel2008.us

 

"Where would you say that

Submitted on April 7th, 2008 by minorgrey

"Where would you say that most libertarians would be placed in the libertarian quadrant?"

 

I'm at the very top point.... as far north as you can get.  As for most libertarians they probably vary all over the thing.  As for most members of the Libertarian party, most of them come directly from the Republican Party but there are a few libertarian democrats running for congress.  One is in Florida if I recall correctly.